Symmetry said:
Can you provide the statement that says that KCM Naruto’s power divided by 13 is stronger than full power PA SM Naruto?
Naruto directly states that during the fight with Nagato, he is stronger then than he was when he fought Pain.
Like verbatim.
I would also just reiterate that 1/13 Naruto has blatantly better feats and scaling than PA SM does, and even has peer chakra feats as 1/13 Naruto can still (even after fighting Muu and the Raikage) enter SM no less than twice, use FRS while in that SM and NOT lose the mode, and can make no less than 3 also SM capable clones as well. Even after using multiple Rasengan variants like CORs even in Base (which PA never showed the ability to do, he needed the OG + KBs + SM to make em). Not to mention the sheer speed deficit with 1/13 of Naruto also having the V2 blitz shunshin feat.
There’s literally 0 reason to even remotely doubt that Naruto cant make 1/13th of himself peer or superior to FP PA SM Naruto. Which also happens to be whats directly stated.
Durability notwithstanding of course, they are KBs so.
Symmetry said:
For the bolded, I don’t see why we’d assume he isn’t since the thread is about SM Jman
Im just framing general portrayal.
I go on to point out SM Jiraiya faring any better is unlikely. Not like Im cherry picking scaling.
Symmetry said:
Jman or Ma / PA actively have SM sensing on its possible Jman dodges the attack
Jiraiya directly disagrees
He himself claims that sensor types avoiding attacks they cant see coming is a level of ability he extols and explicitly doesnt possess or even deem a likely possibility. Its why he doubted Pain was even doing it and concluded his ability had to be something other than sensory power.
With that statement in mind, combined with Jiraiyas own pathetic feats in sensing, it is beyond difficult to argue hes dealing with a KCM1 blindside WHILE distracted by Onoki and Gaara AND committed to an attack in y direction.
And thats not even getting into the fact that Jiraiya point blank doesnt have the speed scaling for it either, which I know youre touchy about. Jiraiyas speed scaling being superior to that of Tendo Pains is beyond unlikely, and even Tendo had issues with FRS level speed at long to mid ranges. KCM1 chakra arms are explicitly shown to be at least FRS levels in speed multiple times, and its entirely possible these are faster than PA FRS.
Jiraiya dealing with a FRS level speed out of a feint coming at him from behind is an insanely tough sell. But honestly I doubt youre gonna even admit that much.
Symmetry said:
The Asura nonsense doesn’t work as Jman wasn’t actively sensing
i wouldnt say it doesn’t work
It shows that the guys sensing isnt at an impressive passive level if it even exists.
And like your own damage control here says, I can easily use that talking point against you and point out that Jiraiya also wont be “actively sensing” when hes mid attack on Onoki and Gaara…And literally doesnt know Narutos even on the battlefield.
Its like damn near the exact same scenario as the asura scene, only Jiraiyas against a MUCH faster opponent and being actively distracted too.
Not to mention something else the sannin band loves to ignore is Asura doesnt attack Jiraiya with his guard down in a pure blindside…He directly taunts Jiraiya verbally, and only even begins to attack explicitly AFTER Jiraiya has once again started to move and fight. He was still shown just straight up too slow to deal with Asura even when being given a chance to defend himself via warning. That makes the idea he can do it to KCM very bleak. And again, says a lot about Jiraiyas lacklustre speed.
Symmetry said:
I can play the same game, as I’d argue Muu would preform no better than SM Jman against Pain.
You can try you mean
But this would be very untrue. Muu and Onoki are insanely dangerous opponents for the paths to contend with especially when they arent the full lineup. Mu is particularly dangerous.
Symmetry said:
Muu can’t sense the chameleon
Thats contentious already tbh
Mu has greater sensory capabilities than the entire ASF, and even has such feats as detecting blood relatives based solely on chakra signature. And divide those he sensed accurately according to what f*cking nation they came from. His sensory feats are incredibly focused. And again, are blatantly on a greater level than those of Sage Jiraiyas as he can detect attacks he cannot see and accurately avoid them.
He also possesses an even more extreme variant of the chameleons own ability…And thus is better equipped than practically anyone to know exactly how its ability works and how to fight it.
That said, finding the chameleon isnt that big of an issue for him anyway as they aren’t finding him either.
Symmetry said:
Chamelon could catch Muu in its tongue while the other paths pressure him & that’s that.
Thats adorable
The guy KCM Naruto cant blindside is getting blindsided by a Pain summon
Whatever you gotta to do sleep at night I guess
Symmetry said:
The Paths can’t find Muu but Muu can’t really find them
Muu can easily find and kill the other 2 while animal hides the entire time dude 
What are you doing
Symmetry said:
paths get to neg Jinton via jutsu absorption
Jutsu absorption only one of them has you mean.
They get 1 free eats this way the same way Jiraiya flopped with COR, then Mu knows to engage them physically and considering he can literally walk up behind them and they will have 0 way of even knowing hes there, and them just straight up stab them in the back of the head (this can be further supplemented by him using a fission clone that hoodwinked KCM sensing at point blank) and thats that.
Once Pretas down, or even just slightly separated from the rest of the group, Mu can literally paint over the rest with his laser beam of FRS+ level death.
Speaking of FRS+ level, Mus Jinton is directly stated faster than FRS level speeds even at close range…Something else you’re ignoring. Jiraiyas again not coming near that AND Jinton is ranged unlike something like COR. FRS alone was taxing even Tendo to physically react to. Say Mu is in Jiraiyas position when he used Kebari Senbon against animal path? Animal dies. Literally no diff.
Something else you’re overlooking is Muu and Onoki are directly shown MAINTAINING a Jinton beam even as it’s absorbed. Meaning, even if we assume he tagged a path with Jinton and Preta was lucky enough to be able to physically move in front of the beam that can nearly blitz Tendo and block it? All Muu needs to do is just…Aim the beam to the left and kill another path that Preta isn’t standing next to…
This is all made 10x worse for pain btw when you consider Mu can break LoS literally with a THOUGHT whenever and wherever he wants in the fight…
Its frankly amazing to me how biased you are here once again for the sannin man. Legit last night you were harping on about how powerful breaking LoS is for Jiraiya to the point he can use it to even easily overcome a speed gap and essentially chain it into oneshotting someone as fast and durable as the V2 Raikage essentially whenever he used something like a smokebomb…Yet here you have Jiraiya vs a character who can LITERALLY BREAK LOS AT WILL IN AN INSTANT WITJH NO PHYSICAL MOVE ON HIS PART, REGARDLESS OF HIS OPPONENTS POSITION, STATS, OR ABILITIES…And suddenly its not that big of a deal if you break LoS anymore 
Like…I cant with you lately man. Lots of double standards.
Symmetry said:
sets of eyes were stated to be better than even the Byakugan, so Muu materializing for a Jinton charge (which would get eaten anyways) isn’t happening.
See here’s another one
Odd how Jiraiya easily got an attack window against these eyes by (drumroll plz) breaking LoS and his attack also very nearly landed…
But Mu, who again can break LoS at will, and has far faster attack speed and attack potency and attack range than Jiraiya…Suddenly cant do the same thing.
Mu could feint KCM Naruto and is stated to attack faster than him and hit harder than him…But he cant replicate Jiraiyas kebari senbon performance…
Wow
Sincerely just wow
Symmetry said:
Mu is at best working as hard as Jman to take them down.
He really isnt
He can literally kill them essentially at his leisure. He can oneshot any of them from any range, he is in 0 danger of them tagging or finding him at any point, he always knows where any of them (with the arguable exception of Chameleon clad Animal, which he doesnt start the fight in btw) at any time, and thanks to flight he can approach them from literally any angle and kinda cant be anticipated, his most powerful attack is fast enough to outpace even Tendo Pains best CQC reaction feat, and he himself is faster than anyone here. Jiraiya included.
But yeah no he does worse or no better than Jiraiya.
Sure 
Symmetry said:
And if he does beat the trio (already dicey but not impossible),
Mu is literally mid diffing the trio
If you were remotely honest about sannin standing relative to his, youd get that.
Symmetry said:
nothing implies he does better than Jman against the Asura surprise attack
minus the fact he reacted to KCM Naruto whos far faster in a very similar scenario you mean
But sure
Keep up the cope man
Symmetry said:
Mu won’t be actively sensing as he will assume the fight is over.
Mu wasn’t actively sensing when he negged Naruto either
He was attacking Onoki which is directly stated by Minato and Kurama to prevent sensory abilities
Symmetry said:
And if we just ask him to replicate SM Jman’s feats against the 6 paths, dude is also cooked.
Now bruh thinks Mu cant outperform 1 armed SM Jiraiya…I hope for your sake you at least mean 1 armed Mu…
Cuz otherwise… you were ripping up Troy yesterday for his misrepresentation where 1 armed Jiraiyas performance is concerned…But this…
Yikes
Symmetry said:
All 6 paths bumrushed Jman on pannel, jumping down at him whilst Jman was heavily injured to the point of missing an arm and bleeding out. Despite that, and despite 6 set of eyes > 3 sets of eyes > Byakugan, Jman still not only escaped but took one path out, and that too whilst preta is there to absorb jutsu attacks.
Again, unless we assume being injured prevents Muu from using invisibility (which it wont if losing his 50% physical double didnt) he can literally break LoS and be totally safe from the paths whenever he wants. All he has to do is use that move, hover upwards like 50 feet or so, and The Paths literally cant hit him even by accident. From there, he can plan his next moves at his leisure. Even Kabuto-Mu was avoiding an entire allied division this way and he has far less understanding of Mus abilities than he does himself.
To get that level of safety is something as you just pointed out, Jiraiya had to get f*cking stabbed and employ a complex barrier technique to pull off…Mu can do that literally with a thought
I really dont know how else to describe Mus advantages to you other than to have you picture it like this…
Imagine Jiraiyas Katons hit harder than FRS, imagine they are his go to attack, imagine they are faster than FRS, imagine he himself can move and react at FRS+ speeds, imagine he can fly, and imagine that he has the ability to instantly release a fully formed Dust Cloud Fuuton wherever hes standing in an instant without Ma/Pa or himself doing a hand seal or any other action…
Be honest with me, and tell me how strong youd have that Jiraiya
Cuz that Jiraiya is literally just canon Mu
Symmetry said:
Both of them are suited for different things but overall are relative to each other
They really arent
Mu is faster
Mu is more reactive
Mu has better sensory ability
Mu has better mobility
Mus attack speed is greater
Mus attack power is better
Mus attack range WITH that superior power is better
Mus hax is better (or at least faster)
Mu is straight up portrayed above the Sannin title
Jiraiya at most has the edge over Mu in the following categories…
Barriers (which are useless) stamina (which is contentious) and Genjutsu (which takes time)
He loses to Mu essentially everywhere else. And the gaps arent small.
Comparing Mu to Jiraiya is unironically the same thing as comparing FRS to COR. Literally in the case of their output.
